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Frankg

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Reply with quote  #1 
First I have a curious question. Why do you recommend 3 coats of primer when painting?

The next thing in your plans, spray painting seems to be the method of choice.
I normally don't spray paint. I brush paint to avoid the mess of spray painting. I agree however that spray painting covers a lot better and uniform.

However when I brush paint, using 2 coats primer and sanding, I find that even after the 3rd coat (paint) the coverage is still not complete. I can still see the whitish background (From the primer) and strokes. Is there a recommended system for brush painting in your projects? I am using "Rust-oleum Painter's touch Ultra cover latex gloss" paint. I am using a 1" soft Artists brush to apply the paint. Any suggestions? I don't wish to spend a lot of time applying more coats if I don't need to.
 Attached is a photo of the project piece. The brush I am using is shown. The outlined areas show the background lack of coverage. The color is red, but may appear orangey. Thanks.

Does anyone else out there do brush painting vs. spray? paint coverage.jpg


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Ken Martin

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Reply with quote  #2 
This might be of some help Frankg.

Frank, I do both, and prefer spray painting because it is quick and easy and I can get the best smoothest results.  However, for me because I have to paint outside, the weather sometimes makes spraying impossible.

I have used Delta Ceramcoat paints for years, and usually am happy with the results.

One great big plus with the Delta paints is their vast array of colors.  When I am spray painting sometimes you have cracks or creveses you just can not spray with out the risk of getting runs.  In that case I will match a craft paint color to the Krylon spray color I am using, and paint all the hard to get at parts first with acrylic craft paints, then spray the Krylon color on the rest.  I have found a little overspray onto the craft paint does not hurt a thing, but you can not have the craft paint over the Krylon spray paint.
The photo below is a toy painted with both Delta brush on paint and Krylon Spray paint.
DSC03114_mini.JPG Edited.jpg  However, that is not the subject here.



Rethinking How We Paint


I just finished a little test paint job on several cars, because I have always had trouble with the Delta Blue Craft paints when I paint with a brushs.  I thought maybe I am better now and should check my techniques.
 
I painted two cars red and two cars blue.  
DSC03542_mini.JPG Edited.jpg  I was disgusted with my self.

That day the new WTN article about Larry came out.  I am amazed at what he is able to do and, I have been in touch with him several times by phone, and he and his wife Pam are great people.
I wanted to learn from him about mass producing and some of his tricks for getting the products done quicker
 

One big difference is the way he paints.

He likes to use Metallic craft paint, water clean up, and I think he said he uses FolkArt.

What amazed me was, he said he does not prime any colors except for white and black.

(when painting white and black he primes with cheap house paints, white and black)

 

I had trouble believing that so I went and bought some Red and Blue FolkArt Metallic acrylic craft paint.

 

I decided to test it on two Play Pals already cut out of Popular.

Even on the first coat I could not believe how well the paint was going on.

Then I thought this is not fair, because when I did the test on the two Model T's I painted them with delta red and delta blue on Redwood and a Pine.

So I got scraps of both and did a test paint.

I also got a 2x4 and sanded two side and put tape strips on it to make 4 sections, so I could see the two different kinds of paint side by side on the same board.

 

I DID NOT PRIME ANYTHING.

Again I cannot believe my eyes.

The Play Pals look great with just two coats on paint.

The other test pieces of Redwood and Pine, look great as well with only two coats of paint.  Photo below shows the two coats of paint without any primer.
DSC03550_mini.jpg Edited.jpg 

 

After only two coats of paint, I put on one coat of Krylon's Triple Clear Spray, and Cynthia's beeswax.

Photos 3593, 3597, 3604, & 3605 show the finished Play Pals and the test piece of wood.


DSC03593_mini.JPG Edited.jpg  Just think what this might mean.  The paints on the test 2x4 are Folkart Metallic blue, Delta blue, and Delta red, and on the left is the Folkart Metallic red.  Remember the sample piece or the Play Pals WERE NOT PRIMED before painting.
DSC03597_mini.jpg Edited.jpg Question is do we want to spend 2 days applying 2 coats of primer sanding in between, the 5 coats of paint to end up with a job like the blue car in the 1st photo?

Or do we want to apply 2 coats of paint, sanding between the 1st and 2nd, and then clear coat and be done? 
DSC03605_mini.jpg Edited.jpg 
Another point of interest, the wheels and the axle ends were not primed either.
The axles got only one coat of the Folkart Metallic red and blue.
The wheels are Craftparts wheels, and were spray painted with Krylon's Dual Superbond Paint and Primer.  Two coats of this new product and done with no sanding.
I will post later about getting better results by spray painting.

I hope this helps some.

I really think it is time we re-look at the way we paint using primers.
I am now testing red and blue Folkart Metallic on a scrap of Alder wood.  I wanted to see how it covers.  Same great results so far.

I am so excited about the test above, because it will save a ton of time, and some money, which is not a bad thing.

We have Larry and his wife the thank for this mini break through.


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Udie

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Reply with quote  #3 
Ken - After reading our personal e-mails and looking at your test pieces and play pals, I too went out today and purchased a few types of metallic craft paint, just to see how they apply, self-level and adhere to primed, un-primed wood and sealed woods.

I purchased a couple 2 ounce containers of two (2) different product types made by folkArt and a third(3rd) Metallic Acrylic paint made by DecoArt.
Here are the details:
Type 1 - folkArt Metallic Acrylic Paint - Instructions describe it as a Heavy pigmentation, smooth texture and requires one (1) hour between coats, and is water/soap cleanup.
Type 2 - folkArt Extreme Glitter Acrylic Paint - Instructions, requires one (1) hour between coats and is water/soap cleanup. Repeat until desired shimmer is achieved. It also says that it can be applied over similar colour folkArt colours.
Type 3 - Dazzling Metallic made by DecoArt. Instructions say, excellent coverage and quality with water/soap cleanup.
My colour choice was driver by which colours were on sale today. No point paying full price for an experiment.
So, off I go to the workshop to make up my sample board for my tests and do some painting.
Thanks Ken for your post and possibly a new set of paints for my projects.
Ken Martin

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Reply with quote  #4 
Udie

Thanks for wanting to do some more testing.
Try using regular Craft paints as well as the Metallic paints on un-primed wood.
They seem to be covering better without priming first too.

Look forward to your test. 

Idea:
We all have a piece of waste wood when we cut out a pattern.
Might be a good idea to test our paints on the scrap wood first, then we will know what the results will look like when we start painting the cut out pattern, or toy.

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Ken Martin

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Reply with quote  #5 
Frankg

Remember what we were talking yesterday about sometimes in my old age I just forget things.
Look what I found this morning.
The white Bi-Plane received it's 1st coat of primer yesterday.
Guess who forgot to cover the glue up areas on the wing and the bottom of the plane.

DSC03624_mini.JPG 
However, a couple minutes later with a nail file and we are ready to prime with the 2nd coat.

DSC03626_mini.JPG 
If I remember to mask the wing that is.


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Ken Martin

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Reply with quote  #6 
Another Test On A Different Wood

I am experimenting with Alder wood for my newest Bi-Plane, so I painted a scrap of wood with Metallic Acrylic Paint.  The photo speak for itself.  This test is with just two coats of craft paint and one coat of Poly. 0525141724 (1)_mini.jpg  Edited.jpg This looks great with just two coats of paint, no primer.

Maybe we can all help each other.
Everybody has their favorite paints, woods, and method of painting so why not share what works for us and what does not.  Especially What paints and what colors, will work on un-primed wood.
So lets post photos of what paint you used on what wood.
That way we can all learn from each other.

Udie and Cynthia could set up a place where we can go to post results.  Then all the results would be in one place.  Then if I pick up a piece of Birch for example, i could go to the Forum and see what paint worked best on Birch, and did it need a primer or not..

This is just a suggestion and maybe Udie and Cynthia will know a better way to gather this information.


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Frankg

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Reply with quote  #7 
Thanks for all your inputs. There seems to be several solutions to the problem.

I have done some research on paints and discovered there are basically two sorts of paint qualities. Transparent or translucent (see through) and Opaque (light blocking)
The paint I am using in the example was a transparent/translucent type so I was able to see the underlying primer even after 3 coats application. I did not know this at the time.
One can make transparent more opaque by adding white (More opaque) mix into the color. However this is at the risk of adjusting the color tone to a lighter level. Mixing gesso in the paint is also suggested.
It seems to me that the glossy paints are more transparent accept for the black and white which are more opaque.
Satin finish paints seem to be more opaque, even from my experience in using them. Household flat paints also.
The Delta acrylic paints that Ken mentioned above are also very opaque and have excellent coverage as a result.

I am referring to brush painting in this article.
However Spray paints (gloss finish) seem to have more opaque qualities to them, therefore better coverage.


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Frank Galica
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Udie

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Reply with quote  #8 
Excellent post Frank. With so many craft paint suppliers and just as many types of craft paints available for different base materials it can be very easy to purchase the wrong one for your project. You brought up an excellent point about transparency. Even common off the shelf products from Big Box stores offer transparent and opaque paints/stains. The link you provided really discussed coverage in easy to understand text, thanks for posting that link. One of the products they mentioned was Liquitex. I have used many of their products with great results, price is higher, but a great product, good coverage and you do have to be careful when purchasing, because they also have a line of transparent and opaque paints. This post you have started is really getting some great reply posts with all kinds of terrific inputs.
You have really hit a nerve here.
Frankg

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Reply with quote  #9 
Thanks Ken for your inputs.

"Udie and Cynthia could set up a place where we can go to post results.  Then all the results would be in one place.  Then if I pick up a piece of Birch for example, i could go to the Forum and see what paint worked best on Birch, and did it need a primer or not.."


I agree, I think that's a great idea!!

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Frankg

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Reply with quote  #10 
"Guess who forgot to cover the glue up areas on the wing and the bottom of the plane."[rolleyes]

Aah! So good not to feel alone!!

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Frankg

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Reply with quote  #11 
I'm still curious why 3 coats of primer?? Why not just one? Ken has indicated that perhaps primer is not needed. I have done work without primer and got good coverage. Do I need primer on hardwoods? I can paint pine without primer and it covers well in two coats. The only issue with pine (even with primer applied) is that the hilly valley grain patterns tend to "stick out" and they need to be sanded smooth before painting.
If you look at Ken's illustrations on the 2 x 4's (probably fir) you can see the "hills and valleys" of the grain. However, with pine, it is less defined and really shows up after paint is applied.
Anyone else encounter this?

BTW- I love the bus!!!

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cynthia lewman

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Reply with quote  #12 
Hi Frank,

We recommend 3 coats of primer before painting so as to create a smooth surface before applying color. As you mentioned in your last post the grain of the wood often will raise up when you apply your first coat of primer.

The softer the wood you're using, the more the grain will rise. In between each coat of primer we recommend sanding the primer when dry. Sometimes it takes more than 3 coats of primer to achieve a glass like surface after applying the final coats of color paint and clear polyurethane. You can use this process to obtain a new car quality gloss finish.

Whether or not you need primer depends on how much you want to hide the wood grain. You need to prime your wood if you want to seal the grain and obtain a high gloss finish. 
cynthia lewman

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Reply with quote  #13 
Hi Frank & Ken,

You mentioned you'd like to see an area in the forum dedicated to painting tips, techniques, experiments etc.

Udie and I thought it was a great idea so we've created a new Category under "Toymakers Workshop" titled "Painting Tips & Techniques" with the description "Post your wood toy painting experiments, your tips and techniques and all your painting related questions here."

We'll be combing the Forum looking for painting themed Topics that need to be moved into this new category. To begin we've moved this Topic under "Painting Tips & Techniques". I've also changed the title of this Topic from "Painting" to "Primer - How Many Coats?"

Thanks for the terrific suggestion!
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